Episode Transcript
<p><!--block-->Alara Sage (00:01.572)<br>Hello, hello, and welcome to another episode of the ecstatic woman podcast. We're here to activate and inspire women in their power and their authenticity and in their bliss. I'm your host, Alara Sage, my womb shaman, and I am an activator and facilitator of shock D the creative life force energy that exists within all of us and fellow ecstatic, you know, for one thing.<br><br>that we all have to do on this journey is to resolve and process our trauma. But for me, I know for sure I can speak for myself when I say I didn't really believe that I was traumatized for most of my life. Even though I have actually been sexually abused as a child, I still didn't necessarily have these big moments of quote unquote trauma that really felt like it validated, you know.<br><br>the storyline of trauma for me. And it was through my spiritual journey and through my own healing that I realized that trauma is much more complex than we have often labeled or seen it as. And we're here to talk about this today. We're here to talk about what complex trauma really is. We have a wonderful host. Harris Eddie Hill is here with us today.<br><br>Harris (they/them) (01:22.296)<br>Bye.<br><br>Alara Sage (01:22.66)<br>And Harris Eddie Hill is a out and proud non-binary podcaster, bestselling author, coach, and founder of the Center for Childhood Trauma, which is a platform dedicated to supporting adults to overcome their childhood trauma so that they can thrive. What a beautiful thing you have created, Harris. Thank you so much for being here with us.<br><br>Harris (they/them) (01:49.23)<br>Thank you so much, it's a real pleasure to be here and it's one of those things where the deep connection I feel is here so I really hope that everyone will have a positive experience, yourself included and me and everyone who's listening. So yeah, I'm really pleased that we made this happen across the pond.<br><br>Alara Sage (02:12.54)<br>Absolutely. Yes. And I wanted to also celebrate because you are our first non-binary guest. So thank you for who you are and representing and being a part of the ecstatic woman with us. So let's talk about complex trauma. What is complex trauma?<br><br>Harris (they/them) (02:28.034)<br>Thank you, thank you, it's a real pleasure.<br><br>Harris (they/them) (02:39.742)<br>So a lot of us are familiar with simple PTSD, which is where we have post-traumatic stress about a specific thing. We can pinpoint that, we can say, I know that I've got PTSD because when I'm in this situation I'm reminded of this very specific thing that happened. You can pinpoint it, you know. It might be like, I don't like getting in cars because of an accident when I was a kid or...<br><br>You know, I'm wary of people touching even my arm if I haven't consented to that, you know, because of things that have happened in the past. Complex trauma is way more difficult to pinpoint because it's almost like the death of a thousand cuts or that water torture, you know, where it's like a drip like once a minute.<br><br>If you take one instance from somebody's complex trauma story on its own, it's not necessarily bad. Some of it is, don't get me wrong, some of it is, some of it's textbook stuff like, you know, physical violence or being verbally bullied, being neglected or intentionally excluded and things like that.<br><br>but a lot of the complex trauma that I see in my work and my own experience as well is stuff that on each individual thing on its own is like, huh, that was a bit weird or that was a bit off. But by the time you've been through that thousands of times...<br><br>Harris (they/them) (04:21.218)<br>it begins to affect your sense of reality, your sense of self, self-worth. And in order to survive those environments, and this could be your parents, it could be your family of origin, it could be the place that you grew up if that wasn't your family of origin, it could be a romantic relationship, it could be an institution that you've grown up belonging to.<br><br>it's really anywhere where over time your brain is getting slightly scrambled a little bit at a time to the point that you're beginning to try to take this shape that has been kind of carved out for you. It's how these people want you to perform or behave or exist and it takes you further and further away from who you are organically. So this could look like...<br><br>Parents who don't want you to have big emotions because they find that too dysregulating It could be an institution that wants you to behave a certain way because its values are very strict. It could be a Romantic partner or a friend who gets jealous very easily and you have to be careful about even who you're looking at even if you're You've gone out for lunch. You can't be seen to be looking at any other people just in case<br><br>they think that means something or they pull you up on it. It's something that over time begins to almost bend you out of your natural shape and puts this pressure on you at the same time. So if you imagine this in the physical sense, it's like your body is massively contorted and at the same time you're trying to bear this incredible weight of what other people need from you.<br><br>it's this double thing of intense pressure and not being able to stand in your natural way that would enable you to do that better. So it's often a double whammy because invariably the situations, the people that really lend to our complex trauma and never happy with what we do or<br><br>Harris (they/them) (06:41.022)<br>it's really on a knife's edge which way something's going to go. And so there's this feeling almost of constantly chasing or trying to be the person that is required.<br><br>and it very rarely works out or the piece doesn't last for very long. So it ends up with us feeling like we're living on eggshells or we're scared to say no, we're scared to say actually what we really think or feel and it begins to make us maybe nervous or anxious or avoidant of those sorts of relationships again or you<br><br>might find yourself getting to the point of anxiety like your body can't handle it anymore, you're maxed out, there's nothing left and you've tied yourself in knots to the point that you become completely non-functional as well. So it's really difficult just to finish this point, whilst I was going through my own treatment for complex trauma.<br><br>Harris (they/them) (07:51.474)<br>My trauma practitioner had said, you know, we'd gone through this really long assessment, she said you have complex PTSD and I was like, okay, I'm not insane, I'm not imagining this. And at the same time, that's a lot to take like to be like, yeah, so things weren't just tricky, they really were categorically not okay. Like what I went through was categorically not okay.<br><br>and one of my best friends said, I completely believe you but I have no frame of reference, no picture in my head for what you went through. Can you give me an example? And at that point I said, not really, all I can tell you is that it was just really bad. And she was like, huh. And then over time more and more and more things have come up and I've been, especially interestingly after I had the trauma treated, now it's safe for these memories to<br><br>Alara Sage (08:34.209)<br>Mm-hmm.<br><br>Harris (they/them) (08:50.082)<br>pop up and also I have a different, I'm understanding them in a new healthy context as well. So it's really normal, like you were saying at the beginning, it's really normal to feel like surely that's not me, you know, most complex trauma survivors don't come from families where they were necessarily beaten or...<br><br>you know, any of the kind of textbook stuff was going on, you can come from a really lovely family who all really love each other and still have complex trauma.<br><br>Alara Sage (09:24.224)<br>Yeah, I think that is such a potent point to end that little portion with because right there, you know, we can be in a loving situation, loving family and yet still experience this trauma. And I definitely went through very similar things. I never got necessarily diagnosed with complex trauma. When I started to watch the little water droplets, because I always say the Chinese water torture,<br><br>I could see how there had been a lot of repetition of certain things, and I could really feel in my nervous system, in my body, how those had been programmed into my body, where when something would show up in my physical reality, I would get triggered into that. You know, and again, when I started, once I could see, you know, all of those tiny little drops is it made a lot of sense. But before I could see all those tiny little drops.<br><br>I didn't know why I felt the way I did and why certain things triggered me. And for me, it really was about just being really disconnected from my authentic self. I had really shut down. So I was like the opposite of anxious. I was just shut down and numb. So I looked like I was doing really, really well. And the truth was that I had just suppressed myself.<br><br>And yeah, I could carry on throughout my day, totally fine. But really who I was not who I knew and could feel myself to be. So there was this real like disconnect and dis-alignment. It almost makes me wonder like, do you think there's a really large portion of our society that has complex trauma?<br><br>Harris (they/them) (11:09.658)<br>I mean, I heard a statistic once that said about 15% of families are emotionally healthy and I have no idea where that came from, I don't really know the numbers and even, you know, but there aren't many people that I meet where I start talking about what I do or even just mention it without them being like, good. You know, even just that, that initial...<br><br>Alara Sage (11:24.562)<br>I'm sorry.<br><br>Harris (they/them) (11:38.654)<br>acknowledgement that I know exactly what you're talking about and what you're doing is needed. You know, I think in my whole kind of career as an entrepreneur I've always served kind of marginalised or in need folks in one way or another, including women who well often<br><br>bear a lot of the emotional and mental labour in their families as well, so common. But I think in all of that time I've only ever had one person say, do we really need this sort of help now? I thought everything was okay. And I was like, no, not quite. So I think generally people, even if they don't say it, even I know people, I've known people like all my life who...<br><br>I've never had that conversation with them. But when I say what I'm doing for work, there's no like, oh, why? They all just go, yep. It doesn't seem to be a surprise to anybody except that one person that I spoke to that one time. But I think I think there's a mixture of things. First of all, complex PTSD is not yet in the DSM, the manual that we use to diagnose neurological.<br><br>you know, neurotypes and personalities and mental health disorders and stuff. Complex PTSD is not in there yet. So there's that. And also, I don't know what it's like where you live, but where I live, even though we've got the National Health Service, they don't, you know, they're already very stretched. They don't have an extra budget to...<br><br>begin diagnosing trauma. They, in this country, in my experience, and I worked for the NHS for a while for our National Health Service and...<br><br>Harris (they/them) (13:49.286)<br>If you ever, as a trauma survivor, got a diagnosis of PTSD, you'd be one of very, very few. And after nearly 20 years of banging my head against a brick wall and trying to get that help and that diagnosis for myself, I gave up and then found a practitioner who had these sort of alternative, quote unquote, methods that fixed me really quickly. And I was like, do you know what?<br><br>I don't think that trauma is very difficult to spot once you know what it is and I don't think it's rocket science and actually I don't think you need a diagnosis in order to get the help that you need in order to get better unless... I know things like EMDR are very popular now, which is great, it's definitely a step in the right direction but it doesn't do everything that you would need.<br><br>to address, especially as a complex trauma survivor as well.<br><br>Alara Sage (14:52.1)<br>Yeah, so let's talk a little bit about that. What do you find, let's talk maybe about some of the, you know, common triggers, the common things that you see in your work to help the audience connect to whether they have complex trauma.<br><br>Harris (they/them) (15:11.302)<br>Mmm. One of the most, I think, obvious things that we see is when folks end up in long-term relationships or being serial monogamists with people who are not massively emotionally healthy themselves.<br><br>and it may be that there's a pattern. So our brains and particularly our wiring around relationships, the majority of that happens before, by the time you're seven.<br><br>So if what you've seen is parents who were not together or were together but unhappy, where maybe you know that it's very cliché it doesn't always happen this way but maybe you've witnessed your father be kind of absent and not massively engaged and your mother be almost kind of like<br><br>neurotic and burnt out because she's carrying so much of the weight. She year after year is possibly putting up with ultimately being kind of like a married single mum.<br><br>And, you know, to your eyes, your dad, yes, he may work, but ultimately, otherwise, he's not massively involved, he doesn't do much, he's quite an inactive parent. Obviously, that can happen in the reverse, or it may be that your parents have split up and found themselves...<br><br>Harris (they/them) (16:49.678)<br>partners who are not massively dissimilar to your sort of other biological parent and then you end up with double the amount of same issues that you had to they had to begin with. So all of that to say that if that's what you're used to you don't know really what healthy looks like, what it feels like and who you should be choosing.<br><br>And particularly if you don't know what it is to be really unconditionally loved by a man who is super present with you, then it may be that any male attention, particularly if you're into men, will just feel like total euphoria even if he's only present about 5% of the time.<br><br>So we often can end up in these situations where we're almost kind of addicted because sometimes it works and if we play the game long enough we'll get another hit.<br><br>Harris (they/them) (17:53.179)<br>So relationships is a big one. Also there are some people who tell me well I don't have that problem because I don't date and some people genuinely don't date because they are not romantically orientated and obviously that's completely valid but for a lot of people they're not dating because they view relationships as only a drain. They don't get it.<br><br>and they're not willing to put any more skin in the game because they've had enough, they're already probably still living with a lot of trauma and their best coping mechanism they have is just to avoid them altogether.<br><br>um and then the other slightly more subtle things is things like people pleasing, struggling to say no, either not having access to your anger at all or having a little bit too much um we may have certain patterns with uh using substances alcohol things like that and<br><br>There are some people who will tell me, I don't have a problem with saying no. Every time my partner cheats on me, I tell him, I tell him that what he's done is not okay. And I made him sleep on the sofa for a whole week. And I'm like, right, and how many times has that happened? And they're like, oh, well, in the last five years, it's only been about five or six times. And you're like, it's...<br><br>Alara Sage (19:19.196)<br>Hahaha!<br><br>Harris (they/them) (19:30.066)<br>A lot of people don't think they're codependent because they're verbal, because they know how to use their words, but it's not followed up with a clear boundary and cutting things off once you know it's not going to get any better. And there are a lot of folks as well who...<br><br>they might find themselves, they are in their family, in their circle of friends, in their community, they're frequently running to fix other people's problems.<br><br>Harris (they/them) (20:06.818)<br>and that used to be me. I used to be very good at that but also I was pushed into that because from the age of about 13 I suddenly became everybody's confidant, including my parents.<br><br>Alara Sage (20:16.028)<br>Mmm.<br><br>Harris (they/them) (20:20.306)<br>So I didn't know what it was to just be in it. I didn't know what it was to exist and that be enough. I had to be there for everyone. And I hear that a lot with other people that they're the child who was lent on emotionally. They were the child who was there for their siblings when their parents were unavailable.<br><br>Alara Sage (20:20.316)<br>Hmm.<br><br>Harris (they/them) (20:45.874)<br>So it can look like so many different things, but I think ultimately it shows up in our relationships with other people. Are we able to be ourselves and all that kind of, how we behave with others.<br><br>Alara Sage (20:54.658)<br>Yassss<br><br>Alara Sage (21:01.336)<br>I love the relationship thing because I always say our relationships are such beautiful mirrors to us and of course our intimate relationships by far the most right because they're very close proximity they're very intimate there's a lot of vulnerability there can be a lot of passion sexual energy all of these things that can really even furthermore bring our wounding to the surface.<br><br>but also all relationships, because I think different relationships offer us different things, right? So, you know, I've had wounding with the feminine, which I don't have with my partners, my male partners. You know, I have to face that wounding in my relationships with women. So different relationships can absolutely offer us different opportunity.<br><br>Harris (they/them) (21:41.984)<br>Mm.<br><br>Alara Sage (21:46.788)<br>And I just love how you bring that forward. And it's definitely a pattern, right? Like one thing I noticed many years now when I was quite young is that I dated men and they would cheat on me. And that happened about three times. Very charismatic men, those men that are always out there, head of attention. And I fell for them because of that. And then the betrayal, which I'd already had in my life before.<br><br>So repeating that pattern as you were speaking to. And then it was like I caught the whole, I caught myself. I was only like 21 maybe when I was like, okay, this has to stop. You know, I see what I'm doing. And so then I swung to the other side, like the really safe guys, right? Who are like the nice guys. And it was so interesting because then I kind of went onto that.<br><br>for a little while, but that wasn't really what I was seeking either, right? It was really about the healing internally that I had to come forward through to really then create a relationship, which was what I was really looking at. It wasn't really about the type of person, the personality type, because now I'm with a very charismatic, passionate individual. We have a phenomenal relationship. But yeah, I had to go through that healing in and of myself. And I also really love how you spoke<br><br>You know boundaries and people pleasing and the ability to use our voice is not necessarily like a boundary right boundaries also about are you taking action to really create to back that up to actualize what we say into existence and whatever reason there is a strong emphasis being put on that right now is i'm saying this from my higher self and and. You know are what we say is so.<br><br>profound, and it's always really kind of bothered me, to be honest with humans, because I find that so many people aren't saying what they're feeling in their bodies, because I can feel them. So they'll feel one thing and say another. Or you could just tell that they're saying things to appease. One of the things I always used to do, this is kind of off topic, but it's here for some reason. One of the things used to drive me nuts is when<br><br>Alara Sage (24:01.892)<br>I would say, hey, let's do this. And it would be like a big thing. Let's go across the country. Or let's do this. And people would be like, yeah, I would love to do that. Let's do it. And I knew that they would never actually follow through with it. I would only ever say something if I was like, all right, I'm ready. Let's go. I was never the type to be like, oh, yeah, totally. I totally want to do that. And then never fall through with it. To me, it was like, it's not coming out of my mouth until I'm ready.<br><br>But that doesn't make me better than those other people. It's just something, one of those things that I really noticed with regards to people about the vibration that's coming out of their mouth and what's actually resonating in their body and how often those things are not the same. And it goes to what you were saying about people pleasing and saying these things to keep the peace. And I feel like when we're children,<br><br>A lot of times we're in these very intense environments. And so we're using our voice to appease and to make everybody happy so that we can feel better in our bodies. Because there's a lot going on in our nervous systems that we feel, and we're trying to calm it down.<br><br>Harris (they/them) (25:16.41)<br>Yes, and I think just to kind of paint the picture of what's on the other side of all of that is that if you have identified in your example that I want people who are really direct, they really say what they mean and they express themselves really, really truthfully, if you cultivate that in your life, what you end up with, because that was a big thing for me, I'm also neurodivergent.<br><br>and I say what I mean always and I'm aware that sometimes I have to deliver things gently but I still deliver it you know it's a really natural part of me to be honest and to be really clear and I'm so thankful for people like Glennon Doyle who says, oh was it Glennon Doyle or was it Brene Brown? One of them anyway who was like<br><br>being clearness is kindness. And I was like, yes, I really feel that it's really important. And now I'm surrounded. All of my close people, including family members, are all neurodivergent. And all of us, if we have a filter, it has to be intentional. We really have to think about using a filter on the occasions that we require one. And the rest of the time, we have these really deep, very honest...<br><br>conversations we hold each other accountable in the most lovely way. If you know a friend is navigating a new relationship and is sounding that you know they might be slipping back into codependency I'm like you know I can it's okay for me to say is there any codependency coming up here and they'll be like oh yeah 100% you know and there's no there's no BS it's total I<br><br>we're always scared that if we let go of those sort of interpersonal coping mechanisms that will be abandoned and of course that is, that can be a potential but if we stick to it what we end up with are people who fit us in a way that we don't have to worry about being abandoned for<br><br>Harris (they/them) (27:36.13)<br>being truthful, being ourselves, for not tiptoeing around. And that's far less exhausting, I find. When I was younger, people pleased, I think part of being non-binary is that I tried very hard to be a girl and was really rubbish at it. And I performed femininity, a huge amount. I still have...<br><br>parts of me that are definitely very feminine but it's not the... it's no longer something I'm trying very hard to do and I think back now to that version of me who was a people pleaser and trying to appear feminine enough and I just I remember as backstory when I was a toddler I loved being naked so often if I would get to somebody's house I'd say to my mum<br><br>you know, are we gonna be here for a while? She's like, yeah, and I was like, brilliant. And I take all my clothes off, except maybe my socks. So there's a part of me that's very unapologetic and very comfortable in my own skin. And yet I remember even in my sort of teens and early 20s when I was wearing these sort of short skirts, tights and all that stuff, I still, I think about that performing.<br><br>femininity and the number one thing I remember is like pulling down my skirt sort of at the side of you know my hip just to make sure that nothing was you know bum cheek wasn't falling out or anything and<br><br>Harris (they/them) (29:16.87)<br>I just think back to that version of me that was permanently exhausted having to perform in this way and present in this way and...<br><br>try to be something for all of these people and those people who needed me to be something, they were terrible people. I look back now and I'm like, oh man, like, you know, if they're on fire, I'd put them out, you know, no hard feelings, but beyond that, absolutely not interested. And I think<br><br>I think to that now and sometimes I find myself in a situation where someone wants me to people please they want me to soothe their ego and I can say I understand what you're looking for I can't give that to you all I'm going to give to you is honesty and possibly something you're not really looking for the thought of stepping back into that role even for two seconds I can't do it and<br><br>Harris (they/them) (30:18.086)<br>I'm so much happier now and...<br><br>Harris (they/them) (30:24.262)<br>not exhausted by people in the same way.<br><br>Alara Sage (30:28.988)<br>Hmm, yeah, that's so beautiful. I find it so liberating to be able to be straightforward and absolutely with compassion. I think that's been the thing that I've had to learn is people used to tell me I didn't have any tact and I didn't have any compassion because I would often just say things very directly, but it was coming from my heart. It was just how I delivered it. So I've learned how to deliver it. And sometimes it's also a timing thing, whatever, but just to not waver from.<br><br>that truth and my partner and I were in that just blunt, honest, you know, we call each other out, we have so much fun with it, actually, we have fun calling each other out, kind of like what you said, like, Oh, is there any code of it? It's like, Oh, yeah, it's totally there. Yes, yes, yes. And, like, just how liberating, how freeing that feels. And I think I really want to emphasize that to the listeners that, you know, when we are in our authentic self,<br><br>It does feel so freeing and liberating. And it feels like, wow, it's like all of that weight of wearing these costumes and these masks for other people that don't feel good. They chafe, they're tight, they don't fit in the right places. They're just cumbersome. And then you get to get all that off and just to be yourself and just really how delicious that truly feels.<br><br>And simultaneously, a lot of the fear we have around, like, releasing those, like you said, the fear of abandonment, which is a real legitimate fear, absolutely. You know, I remember, like, I just didn't fit in high school at all. I didn't fit into any of the cliques. I just didn't fit in with anybody. And I remember, like, I was a tomboy. I grew up around horses. I grew up, like, cleaning stalls and carrying heavy things. I was very buff. I...<br><br>you know, just didn't feel feminine. And I remember checking with myself constantly, like, am I a lesbian? Am I, you know, a guy in a woman's body? And like, I kept just like, no, OK, that doesn't feel true to me either. But this whole, like, femininity thing, like, I remember, like, I always get this image. I don't know why this sticks so strongly in the head. But like, all the girls used to, like, put on lotion all the time and do these, like, real feminine things that I was just like.<br><br>Alara Sage (32:53.784)<br>That just seems like so much work and like now you smell like I don't even know. I don't even like I'm just really basic. I was a basic woman, you know? And ironically enough, as I've come through this process of owning my own true identity, I've actually stepped into more femininity. But it's like this femininity that's really coming from within and just feels so good.<br><br>rather than like, oh, I need to be more like that, or I need to be more like that, because that's what the definition of a woman is, and I need to fit in. So it's just like a real desire to do this or to do that, versus a feeling like we need to. And I feel like that's where we start to really come back to our topic of moving through that trauma and really owning our own identity. And it just feels good. Our authenticity feels so.<br><br>Go ahead.<br><br>Harris (they/them) (33:52.146)<br>Yes, and I find that so often, I've learned this for myself and it's something that I guide my clients to, is that so often your fear of abandonment or of people not liking you, it's actually not really about that.<br><br>because the moment that you promise or make a commitment that you are going to become.<br><br>committed, reliable and<br><br>Harris (they/them) (34:29.89)<br>kind of have your own back and do all of that for yourself, it starts to not matter what that other person may or may not do. That's not to say that we're promoting hyperindependence and I don't need anybody because that's also not true, but if we're worried about a specific person or about people abandoning us for being ourselves, yes there is some genuine grief there that we can't avoid.<br><br>Harris (they/them) (35:02.022)<br>In being yourself there's a feeling of at least I didn't betray myself, at least I didn't let myself down. It makes all of the rest tolerable. To the point now that, I mean, for myself I'll find, I may find myself in a...<br><br>you know, even not that long ago, only a matter of months ago, someone I'd considered one of my sort of top five friends for several years, just out of the blue, did something that was not okay. And when I said, you know, that was really not nice to be on the receiving end of, it felt really out of order. And I didn't appreciate it. I got stonewalled for months. And...<br><br>as unfortunate as that was.<br><br>Harris (they/them) (35:58.898)<br>it was, I was like, I'm not going to stand for that kind of thing. You know, we all make mistakes, but I think that most of us who are emotionally mature can go, oh, you know, I've really dropped the ball there, I've really put my foot in it and I, you know, I'm so sorry about that, like, how can I make amends and we talk it through? But this friend didn't reach out for months. There was no apology, there was no...<br><br>responsibility taken.<br><br>Harris (they/them) (36:33.774)<br>no acknowledging the harm that was done, nothing. And it's not to sound callous, it's not the same as saying, oh I cut people off, like you know the moment that they make a mistake. It's this recognition that actually what's happened here is a sign of somebody who is not able to at this point in time know how to maintain a healthy relationship.<br><br>Harris (they/them) (37:03.49)<br>I am and that's what I want and that's what I expect from people and actually if I can't be with someone I can trust to take responsibility and apologize when a mistake is made then actually there's no future here and it took some weeks of really coming to terms with that but it felt like a calm process it wasn't traumatic I wasn't highly distressed it was a I guess a gentle but sad<br><br>sort of contemplation.<br><br>And had that been me only a handful of years ago, that would have felt like such a severe loss and such an unbearable emotion.<br><br>but I felt very much that because I was there for myself, I felt loved by me to the point that it didn't matter what the other person was doing. And I think that's what, I think that's one of the key things that people don't know until they've been through it. Actually, it doesn't matter how those people react. If you're in a child, you're in a self.<br><br>100% knows that they can rely on you without doubt, that you will do your best and you will show up over and over again for them and advocate for them and you. And actually a massive majority of that anxiety and that worry and fear goes away.<br><br>Alara Sage (38:38.08)<br>Yeah, that is deeply profound. And I think it's really important to point out because I always say that the only betrayal is the betrayal self, right. And we just don't know that because we start doing it when we're so little, we when we're so little is when we start taking those actions to please others or taking those actions to whatever we feel is necessary to maintain the peace to keep ourselves safe is really often<br><br>what it's about in those early childhood years is a feeling of safety in our body, right? And so we don't understand that we're betraying ourselves. We don't understand any of that, right? And as we're able to see more and more that as the things we're talking about of the abandonment of the people-pleasing of, you know, bending ourselves into all these awkward situations or wearing these costumes that don't feel good in order to fit in or to make other people feel good or whatever it is.<br><br>Like how actually deeply painful that is for ourself because it is it hurts us and only us. Doesn't hurt the other people and you know, it hurts us and that self betrayal, I would say is one of the hardest things to work with in ourselves. It's one of the deepest cut wounds because it's about trust, right? And if we can't trust ourself, who can we trust? You can't.<br><br>And so then you start to project that. That's what happened to me, that distrust upon everybody else. And then maybe you either become codependent or you become detached, like you were saying, like overly independent. I don't need anybody. Screw all of you. I'm fine by myself, which is just a push away. Or you're latching on when all you really want is, like you said, you to have your own back.<br><br>your intelligence and emotional ability to be able to breathe into the space and be like, I feel like I was an integrity. Wonderful. I'll back that up. I feel like I wasn't integrity. Wonderful. I will take actions to apologize, to step forward, to remedy the situation regardless of whether we were in integrity or not, but being able and willing to see that and then have our back in both of those actions.<br><br>Alara Sage (40:56.284)<br>is how we regain that trust of self. And like you said so wonderfully, it ends up being this very calm and really nourishing experience when you get into circumstances like that because you've got your own back.<br><br>Harris (they/them) (41:15.144)<br>100% yeah it's a massive<br><br>just to touch briefly on the actual healing of complex trauma. It's... So much of the pre-work I find in itself is profound. The actual trauma processing is actually a relatively smaller proportion of the time that I spend with people. Because what we tend to do at the beginning is start to recall all of those parts. So we recall our inner child and we recall...<br><br>you know, the anger or the sadness if we're very angry because it's protecting us from feeling the sadness, you know, it really is a coming together of all of these parts and I think that<br><br>that what we've just been talking about is one of the parts that we recover is that adult self who's like, well actually I'm in charge now. I'm here for us. It's my responsibility to actually put those boundaries down and defend them if people are not going to respect them and to walk away if we can't trust people to work with us on that. And it's some of the most profound work and it sounds so simple but I find that<br><br>in the spaces where we begin to kind of communicate with those aspects of ourselves and hold that dialogue, witness those parts. It's so profound and<br><br>Harris (they/them) (42:52.766)<br>healing in the sense that there comes a resilience with it. I had some... so my simple PTSD was around sexual abuse. The first time I was 10, the second time was in my 20s and the third time... no sorry, second time was in my teens and third time was in my 20s. So it's literally like every decade. I'm in my 30s now and...<br><br>after the third man to do that when I was in my 20s, somebody really unhelpfully said, you know, like, there's no guarantee that this wouldn't happen again.<br><br>And I was like, shut your face. But there was a part of me, and I remember I was trying to explain it to my doctor at the time when I had gone to my GP after the third guy. I decided that it wasn't in my interest to go to the police for me personally. I was like, no, that's not right for me. But I said to my doctor, I said,<br><br>It's almost not about that, it's about... There's a part of me here that is abandoned, that there is something that is happening within me that keeps happening. And the kind of assaults are an extreme consequence of something that is already within me. And she was saying, it's not your fault, it's not your fault. I said, I'm not saying it's my fault. What I'm trying to explain is that...<br><br>when these things are happening and even in the lead up or where I start to know that I'm in danger.<br><br>Harris (they/them) (44:41.906)<br>it's like I'm a possum and I'm playing dead or there's something that's happening that isn't me that I'm not in control of and I don't know what this is but that's the issue here you know if I if I you know God forbid but you know if I went through something like that again at least if I was present for myself it wouldn't have felt so bad like part of this is this feeling that something within me is happening that I don't want to happen.<br><br>You know, I can't guarantee that things won't happen to me ever again. But if in that in that situation I was present enough to make an exit the moment that I felt unsafe, where in the past I gaslit myself like, oh, maybe I'm just exaggerating here, you know. Um, if I had access to my full self in those moments, I would feel less messed up about this.<br><br>and gaining that part of myself back that<br><br>almost feels like I would turn up for you to the death. Like that is the part that I needed. And that's the part that I now have access to now that I've processed my own complex trauma. And it feels like it's not the same as invincibility, but it's this massive resilience that I have now. And I really wish this for other people because it's so life-changing.<br><br>Alara Sage (46:01.514)<br>Hmm.<br><br>Alara Sage (46:15.712)<br>Yeah, that's again, truly beautiful. And I consider that empowerment, right? Because, you know, yes, things can happen that are out of our control. And, you know, I was sexually abused as well multiple times. I was much younger. And so never would I ever say, you know, oh, it's your fault, or it's my fault. It's a person's fault. That's the being abused. And as you so wonderfully put, especially when it's a repetitive action or repetitive experience, there's something deeper going on.<br><br>And to me, it's we empower ourselves by the willingness to look at it. Right. Just like I did with my constant betrayal. You know, I was like, wait a second, this keeps happening. This is a pattern. And, you know, that must be. And I was only like 19, 20 when I figured this out. I wasn't even spiritual or anything. It was just I noticed that there was a pattern, you know, and it's like there's something that I need to change to stop this pattern. And.<br><br>And you know, that's empowerment when we start to own that we are a contributing factor to what's happening. And you know, being a victim is real in certain circumstances. And also we are co creating a lot of these experiences. And that's how we gain our power back in my opinion, because yes, you know, how would we then experience something like that completely different when we are in our power, when we're deeply aware and present and willing to be like, no.<br><br>right? This doesn't feel right. No, this is not okay. No, this isn't safe. You know, the amount of times that we have to continuously redirect ourselves and make sure that we're staying in spaces that feel nourishing and aligned for ourselves is really where that power is. So<br><br>I think it's really always important to call that out and to speak to it. And I really deeply respect and honor your courage for saying that and speaking that out loud because it's often I find it kind of like a misunderstood concept. Yes, definitely.<br><br>Harris (they/them) (48:15.39)<br>Yeah. I always just like to say to people it's not it's not the same as saying that it's my fault it's saying<br><br>Alara Sage (48:24.687)<br>Ahem.<br><br>Harris (they/them) (48:28.658)<br>it's saying I wish I could have showed up differently if that was going to happen I wish I could have showed up differently because in some way whether because of society our families whatever<br><br>We've been groomed to be quiet and to suppress. And I think that is the bottom line.<br><br>Alara Sage (48:54.272)<br>Yes, yes and our intuition is spot on you know and we really listen to it and the signals that are happening in our body that are saying no right and we're like ah maybe it's okay to shush it'll be fine or i'm overreacting or yeah all of the things right and so again to me that's that self-trust when we learn to trust ourselves again we learn to listen like no i'm<br><br>And like, no matter what's going on out here, no matter who that displeases, or no matter what my friends are saying, or other people are like, oh, this is totally safe. This is a big fat no. And that's all that matters to me because I've got the back, like you said. I've got the child, I've got, I'm supporting, I'm keeping that child safe. And when that's a no, it's a no, no questions asked. Yeah, that's definitely powerful. So.<br><br>Harris (they/them) (49:47.436)<br>us.<br><br>Alara Sage (49:48.912)<br>How can people find you and reach out to you, connect with you?<br><br>Harris (they/them) (49:54.774)<br>Sure, the best place to go is my website which is mxharishill.com, that's M-X Harris with a double R, Hill with a double L dot com. It's got a link to all of my social media platforms, I've got a healing group, there's a webinar about how complex trauma is healed, how that works. And I've also got a, if you're obsessed with audiobooks like I am, I've got a short curriculum for<br><br>folks who have childhood or complex trauma that I really recommend. It's four audio books and they're the four key ones I think that if you have complex trauma, those are the four areas that you really need help with to help you to move forwards and it's been instrumental in my healing and other clients. I've recommended them thousands of times at this point and they're really amazing books.<br><br>Alara Sage (50:54.705)<br>And where are those found? Are those found on your website? Okay.<br><br>Harris (they/them) (50:57.043)<br>Yeah, you can get all of those things on my website.<br><br>Alara Sage (51:00.412)<br>Perfect, excellent. And the audience might have noticed that we're not doing an activation today. I just in the moment decided, I've been going with intuitive hit for a little bit of time, not to bring them into the guest episodes anymore. So we're just going to end this. I'm not even sure I know how to do that. But I'm going to end it by saying, Harris, thank you so much for being here with us today. It was a delicious conversation and.<br><br>very honored again to have you on our podcast and to be our first non-binary guest here on The Ecstatic Woman.<br><br>Harris (they/them) (51:37.686)<br>It's been a pleasure. Thank you so much for having me here. It's, you create a really lovely space to have these conversations, so thank you.<br><br>Alara Sage (51:46.492)<br>Thank you. And audience, please reach out to Harris and share this episode. Kind of as we were talking about here today, what percentage of the population does have complex trauma? I sense it's very, very high. And so these kinds of conversations need to get out there. So help support Harris in their path and in their journey and in the work that they're doing by sharing this episode. And until next time.<br><br>you all so very much.<br><br>Alara Sage (52:22.8)<br>I had to think about the day.<br><br><br></p>
